Topic ID 1805
I was going to post this on the missing shops board these aren't exactly missing but a sign of the times. There are two planning applications in Public Notices this week; both requests for change of use from A1 (prime retail) to A2 (Office). Both in Fore Street at the old Yates footwear shop and the old Hill House Hammond/Brides complex. Two more reatil outlets disappearing. My ex-Treasurer who was a most educated man wrote an excellent piece on the town centre in which he posited that the encroachment of non retail outlets such as tatoo shops, funeral parlours and tyre and exhaust centres mark the shrinking core of the traditional high Street shopping centre. With these outlets going Fore Street is looking less like a traditional High Street; especially at the eastern end. Traders tell me that they have seen an increase in footfall since the opening of M&S but maybe too late for some. A lot of people on this forum have wished for a butcher, baker, shoe shop etc etc but if you were of that profession would you open a shop in Hertford. And a question that takes up most of my working day is how do I attract that sort of trade back into the town. Or do we bite the bullet and say that Hertford is going the way of a service town with bars, restaurants, health and beauty. A place to enjoy but not to come and shop in.
Reply ID 22668
I've never regarded Fore Street as a high street. Before the Relief Road it might have been viable but now there is just too little passing trade at the eastern end. If I were a retailer I wouldn't go anywhere near it.
Reply ID 22682
quote:Reduced rates for smaller shops to encourage independents to flourish again. The big chains can afford the rates. Most people who want to set up a shop do the maths and realise that the combination of rent & rates is enough to make their idea untennable. Enable the first 2 years of trading to be at a reduced rates rate, even on a sliding scale based on turnover or square footage. This allows a shop's reputation to be built in a period when you're probably paying off more debt than able to take a wage. You're also more likely to make it past the first year of business, too, keeping the town centre used and not with ever changing shops and periodically empty premises - both of which give a negative impression an encourage whispers of gloom.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
a butcher, baker, shoe shop etc .... how do I attract that sort of trade back into the town.
Reply ID 22692
quote:I have no exoerience of shops, except as a shopper. What is the problem at the moment, is it just footfall being low? If it's rates being too high, could these be changed to be based on a percentage of profits or turnover? As others have said, it seems the big businesses are more able to pay shop rates than individuals, so this imbalance needs to be changed if you want to attract more individual shops. Why does Ware have lots of independent shops and Hertford doesn't? I've always assumed that if a shop has the choice of one or the other, Hertford has a bigger catchment and Ware is then too close for two shops to be viable, but I don't really know if that is the case. Interesting topic [:)]
Originally posted by sloopjohnb A lot of people on this forum have wished for a butcher, baker, shoe shop etc etc but if you were of that profession would you open a shop in Hertford. And a question that takes up most of my working day is how do I attract that sort of trade back into the town. Or do we bite the bullet and say that Hertford is going the way of a service town with bars, restaurants, health and beauty. A place to enjoy but not to come and shop in.
Reply ID 22695
A friend of mine with experience of commerce in both Hertford and Ware recently expressed to me his opinion that "Hertford's a dump". I looked amazed given his long term standing in the community and asked him to explain. It was a comparison to Ware and his general reasoning was that traders in Ware are better looked after and apparantly there is some sort of town management committee (I might have got the wrong end of this because I was trying to think up anti-Ware, pro-Hertford arguments) that helps out traders in all sorts of ways. How this differs from sloop's work in Hertford, I'm not sure. He also thinks that Hertford is going downhill because of the empty shops, which is a result of costs being too high for local businesses. As an aside, we were recently in Warwickshire for a weekend and drove into a town called Alcester (near Stratford) on the Saturday morning. It is a lovely little town, probably about Hertford's size, quaint, with independent shops and small chains. What was most noticeable however, was that all parking was free, next to the centre, enabling shoppers to come and go as they pleased, without fear. Perhaps that was why the butcher we passed was thriving, along with all the other little shops.
Reply ID 22696
quote:Another factor may have been that it was not surrounded by new towns of twice the size. [:)]
Originally posted by 2929paul
As an aside, we were recently in Warwickshire for a weekend and drove into a town called Alcester (near Stratford) on the Saturday morning. It is a lovely little town, probably about Hertford's size, quaint, with independent shops and small chains. What was most noticeable however, was that all parking was free, next to the centre, enabling shoppers to come and go as they pleased, without fear. Perhaps that was why the butcher we passed was thriving, along with all the other little shops.
Reply ID 22699
Sloopjohnb is totally right. I believe that the shops in the market town are finding the increased level of traffic, the degree of difficulty in simply getting around and the lack of weekday public footfall very poor for trade. Any bus I see is half empty, the cars are generally using the town as a rat-run to bypass the A414 and the shops are full of browsers or sandwich buyers at lunch. When you consider that Sele Farm and Bengeo have a Butcher shop, for example, there is no need to come into Hertford for anything other than a dry sarnie and a beer. As a brewery town, McMullens could do with injecting a bit of the money that we have ploughed into it back into keeping the Market Town 'feeling' alive. Corporate names are not the future of this town, small independent shops are. Grants may be the way forward just to enable a local shop to get on it's feet. I think McMullens could do a bit more to support local shop ventures for a start. I'm a bit tired of shops opening and closing within a year and some action needs to take place.
Reply ID 22762
Thanks for all this input. I invited a cross section of local businesses to meet the Leader of East Herts, Cllr Jackson owing to their concern over rates. To his credit he explained the mathematics of business rate collection and how much goes to central govt and how much comes back to local govt. Not that everyone understood it all but that it is a strange way of going about things. There is rate relief available and a lot more needs to be done to ensure those businesses entitled to relief gets it. Which is now the focus of the Partnership in town - towards training and education. I have applied for a grant to enable us to pay for local business training - Hertford (shire) has not got a good record in getting grants owing to the perception that we are a wealthy part of the country and can afford to do it all ourselves. Anyway, despite this we are looking to hold short, one hour seminars starting hopefully September for any business to attend. Might be free , might be about £10. As for Ware - Paul refers to the old Town Centre Management Boards. The ficus was more on events. Fun Days are excellent entertainment etc but they do not help to promte and underpin the economy on a long term basis being a one off event. The Old Hertford Board has been replaced with a much more business focused Partnership. Took a little while to set this up and get past the negativity of parking but the first positive things to come out of this is the Trade directory, Loyalty Cards, Website, training programs, a more regular Farmers Market; and a personal project involving the river to attract tourism which is on hold for the time being whilst we all get through the summer holidays.
Reply ID 22764
quote:Does Ware actually have more independant shops than Hertford? I'm not convinced although I could be wrong. Hertford does have a more diverse range of shops and choice than Ware I would say. Only my opinion.
Originally posted by ian.ballquote:I have no exoerience of shops, except as a shopper. What is the problem at the moment, is it just footfall being low? If it's rates being too high, could these be changed to be based on a percentage of profits or turnover? As others have said, it seems the big businesses are more able to pay shop rates than individuals, so this imbalance needs to be changed if you want to attract more individual shops. Why does Ware have lots of independent shops and Hertford doesn't? I've always assumed that if a shop has the choice of one or the other, Hertford has a bigger catchment and Ware is then too close for two shops to be viable, but I don't really know if that is the case. Interesting topic [:)]
Originally posted by sloopjohnb A lot of people on this forum have wished for a butcher, baker, shoe shop etc etc but if you were of that profession would you open a shop in Hertford. And a question that takes up most of my working day is how do I attract that sort of trade back into the town. Or do we bite the bullet and say that Hertford is going the way of a service town with bars, restaurants, health and beauty. A place to enjoy but not to come and shop in.
Reply ID 22776
quote:Saying it had more was probably not the best way of putting it - I guess it's more accurate to say Ware has a greater proportion of independant shops. That's changing though as more chains are moving into Ware. I can't find a link to the article, but there was a report some while back about "clone towns" and the results were that Hertford has quite a few big chains in the centre but Ware didn't. Generally I'd agree with that, but when I shop in Hertford it's only in the centre parts of town. Of course, Hertford is a larger shopping town anyway...
Originally posted by Tigger Does Ware actually have more independant shops than Hertford? I'm not convinced although I could be wrong. Hertford does have a more diverse range of shops and choice than Ware I would say. Only my opinion.
Reply ID 22800
There is no doubt, Hertford has too many empty units. Is it high rent/rates or lack of interest from the public to spend outside of the shopping centres? What about the Natural Clothing store? Great position, yet no one takes it. Too expensive?
Reply ID 23244
As I and others have pointed out previously Hertford is a small place surrounded by easily accessible larger centres. There are small but thriving towns which happen to be regional centres, but Hertford can never be this unless St Albans, Welwyn Garden City, Harlow, Stevenage, Brookfield Farm, Enfield, Wood Green, Central London dissapear and that is not going to happen. Hertford is a two car, commuter town so there is, I suspect, little local loyalty among many people.
Reply ID 23246
Well thankyou for that entirely negative, dispiriting and defeatist post. I hope your job of work doesn't require you to motivate people because judging by your remarks we should all just give up. This sort of "can't do" attitude helps no-one.
Reply ID 23287
quote:Hertford is a two car town, granted. It a commuter towm on the level of the traffic that commutes through it and that a significant part of the population commute. There is also a significant number of people who live & work in Hertford. The past threads/posts in this forum are a clear demonstration of how loyal & (sometimes very) protective people are of Hertford. Most of the people I know in Hertford have moved from within Hertford; like shunt said on a different thread, once you're in you never leave. That's down to Hertford and the people who live here.[:)][:)]
Originally posted by Andrew
As I and others have pointed out previously Hertford is a small place surrounded by easily accessible larger centres. There are small but thriving towns which happen to be regional centres, but Hertford can never be this unless St Albans, Welwyn Garden City, Harlow, Stevenage, Brookfield Farm, Enfield, Wood Green, Central London dissapear and that is not going to happen. Hertford is a two car, commuter town so there is, I suspect, little local loyalty among many people.
Reply ID 23319
quote:A bit strong, I think. I never said we should give up, but you have to face the reality of the situation. I use Hertford's facilities on a regular basis and am certainly not defeatist. But as I said there are people who live in Hertford but who are not part of Hertford in the sense that they have an address here but take no part in the town or use its facilities and musch of this is due to the accessibility of alternatives.
Originally posted by Steve
Well thankyou for that entirely negative, dispiriting and defeatist post. I hope your job of work doesn't require you to motivate people because judging by your remarks we should all just give up. This sort of "can't do" attitude helps no-one.
Reply ID 23322
I find myself ageeing with Andrew up to a point. In that many people do want and do enjoy living in Hertford. Unfortunately owing to the cost of housing to be able to afford to live heere means that you have to chase the salary which in most people's eyes means London. Which means that a large percentage of Hertford's population commutes. In doing so and I was a prime example up to 20 years ago, is that you go for a drink after work in the City and go for entertainment i the West End which in my case was a couple of stops away on the Central Line. Add in the loss of office space in the town centre to housing (in line with govt policy on regenerating town centres) and you have an even more deserted town centre during the day. Office workers feed the daytime economy but are being pushed out by the lack of available and affordable parking close to the centre. The town centre residents often fall in to the above category as well so it does not always follow that a large town centre resident population is good for the night time economy. Despite all this i am sure that people who live in and around Hertford would prefer to shop here but it is not always practicable. As the traditional High Street ofer is eroding then everyone will drift to Harlow, WGC etc. I am coming to the view that we should bite the bullet and accept that Hertford will become a place to meet, eat and drink and plan the town around this. If we can attract bodies then there might be ways of getting those people back into the shops, who might return.
Reply ID 23329
Surely there is room for both. It is nice to come into Hertford in the daytime and have a coffee in cafe nero. We invariably visit Oxfam Books, Woolworths, Farrow & Farrow and Boots during a visit.
Reply ID 23332
I use many of the local shops for all sorts of things and I think there is a fair mix of quite good shops. I know that if I dont make the effort to shop locally sometimes, then it will be a partial loss to me if certain shops close. I do find the parking charges expensive though and a real pain! If I dont have enough change on me then it is much more tempting to go somewhere else where the parking is free and I am not constantly worrying about getting a ticket. It is much nicer to be able to shop in this way, and obviously you will spend more time and more money. I think Hertford would benefit from having a certain amount of spaces that were free for an hour or so in the town centre- but I guess it isnt financially possible? I want to shop locally as much as possible, but with the high charges and fumbling around for change with a toddler in tow.. its not always easy.
Reply ID 23432
quote:You are still paying a large % based on the rent you pay on the property though. As said earlier in the thread startup costs are crippling. Chains work on the same cost base as an independant in terms of rent / rates, but can support these startup costs against the cashflows of other units. Once the unit rental is over 8k there is no relief anyway and many of the vacant units are lookign for more than that in rent. As you said though, the Business rates are not even a local govt charge, just a fee collected for central govt making them all the more painful to pay.
Originally posted by sloopjohnb
Thanks for all this input. I invited a cross section of local businesses to meet the Leader of East Herts, Cllr Jackson owing to their concern over rates. To his credit he explained the mathematics of business rate collection and how much goes to central govt and how much comes back to local govt. Not that everyone understood it all but that it is a strange way of going about things. There is rate relief available and a lot more needs to be done to ensure those businesses entitled to relief gets it.
Reply ID 24225
Audio Visual in St Andrew Street looked like the latest casulty yesterday - shop appears to be cleared. Not a shop I would use very often - just my luck was going in soon for some assistance with a surround sound[V]
Reply ID 24231
quote:Thats a shame. I suspect it often acted as the unofficial shop front for the internet guys - ie. go in there for good honest advice and then go buy it cheaper on-line.
Audio Visual in St Andrew Street looked like the latest casulty yesterday - shop appears to be cleared. Not a shop I would use very often - just my luck was going in soon for some assistance with a surround sound
Reply ID 24233
quote:Agreed, although the old owners were the best for solutions.
Originally posted by Leo Densianquote:Thats a shame. I suspect it often acted as the unofficial shop front for the internet guys - ie. go in there for good honest advice and then go buy it cheaper on-line.
Audio Visual in St Andrew Street looked like the latest casulty yesterday - shop appears to be cleared. Not a shop I would use very often - just my luck was going in soon for some assistance with a surround sound
Reply ID 24246
Going Places in Bircherley Green has shut as well
Reply ID 24248
quote:Really??? [:0] When? What is going on here in this town???? [:(]
Originally posted by Steve
Going Places in Bircherley Green has shut as well
Reply ID 24255
quote:I thought it was recently renovated by a new owner.
Originally posted by Tigger
Audio Visual in St Andrew Street looked like the latest casulty yesterday - shop appears to be cleared. Not a shop I would use very often - just my luck was going in soon for some assistance with a surround sound[V]
Reply ID 24258
quote:Yes a great shame as the owner is a family friend. He is hoping to re-start soon, so keep a look out for him as he certainly knows his trade. [V]
Originally posted by Tigger
Audio Visual in St Andrew Street looked like the latest casulty yesterday - shop appears to be cleared. Not a shop I would use very often - just my luck was going in soon for some assistance with a surround sound[V]
Reply ID 24269
I always liked going passed and seeing the dog in the window.
Reply ID 24275
I think its getting to a point where the solution is to embrace more eateries and bars, not block them. Old style town centres are dying all over the country. We all like the idea of small independent shops, but they are becoming less and less common. I think there is a market for specialist shops (Farrow & Farrow is a good example), but I don't think we'll see the return of stores like furniture and clothing. The prices in the retail chains, due to the Far East manufacturing, are simply too hot to compete with. I know cost isn't everything, but it is if you need to capture a high footfall. And with the internet seriously eroding margins on niche products, footfall is now becoming a key factor, even to specialist businesses. Add Regional shopping centres to the power of the internet, and the traditional town centre simply cannot exist in our preferred state. We could sit around and debate how to get chains and new independent outlets to choose Hertford, but we only have to look at Hoddesdon to see where that type of procrastination can lead. Hoddesdon was a good local shopping area in the 70's and early 80's. Between 1985-90, the council rejected many applications for change of use, all the while, stores were closing. They produced lovely questionnaires, asking people what they wanted in the town (which chain?), and they even asked some of the chains directly, but all the while stores kept closing. Eventually, the town had so many empty units, no one new wanted to move in. It was the way they went about trying to "save" the town that actually killed it. It’s recovered slightly now, but it’s a shadow of its former self. I don't want to see the same happen to Hertford. I think we should let the service industry in. It will save the town, not hinder it.
Reply ID 24277
Dude .. well said sir. The sooner people realise that business is an ever-changing concept based on money and not sentiment the better.
Reply ID 24286
I'm totally against the council blocking all these change of use requests. People just move in and abuse the whole planning policy anyway, Caffe Nero for example, when Costa get blocked by trying to persue proper channels. So what if we have a town full of eatiers, bars, estate agents and coffe shops, with the odd specialist stores such as Farrow & Farrow, Loftcat etc. I would rather see a town where all teh retail units are in use and successful than have a ghost town like Hoddesdon. Society is constantly changing and if you don't move with the times, you'll get left behind.