Topic ID 528
Front page of the Mercury. And to think that Admin deleted what they thought was a flippant comment from Mr Fandango! I think its a great idea!
Reply ID 5146
I agree, no mess to the countryside, still means we have "overground" roads to get across from Town Centre to Richard Hale and Essendon side, solves nightmare of people working in other towns who don't need us, also means we can shop, park and spend money more. Hurrah.. So I suppose this idea will be shelved! I also read a letter in THe Mercury that a woman wrote saying we don't need a bypass just car share.. Yeah right that is NEVER going to happen, we just don't do it.. we all drive just ourselves, immediate family and friends and that's it... I would support this idea wholeheartedly of a tunnel. We used to have the best engineers in the world and they are still building great dams, bridges and airports in the Far East very well, we should be able to deal with "bad soil" in hertfordshire..
Reply ID 5148
I don't feel i should comment on this as: a) I haven't seen the Mercury yet. b) I don't want to be deleted again. c) I don't want to come over all smug and say I told you so. :-/
Reply ID 5150
Can someone elaborate on the proposals? Sounds interesting - don't want to have to wait until this evening to read the paper!
Reply ID 5152
They are proposing to dig a bloody great big tunnel from one side of the town to the other! They also propose to part fund it by developing the land along the road (houses, cinema and shops) They did it before in Hartfield etc etc etc
Reply ID 5153
What sort of route Vic?
Reply ID 5154
Hmmm, sounds perfectly feasible to me [:D]
Reply ID 5155
Victor is being inaccurate at best (he also omits to say who "they" are, although to most people it would suggest the local authority). As it is, nobody is proposing anything, it's just an idea floated by an ex-Mayor (or a "vision" as The Mercury put it - the idea that is, not the ex-mayor!). Even the whole idea of a by-pass is nothing more than a conversation piece. There are no formal plans or even plans to make plans.
Reply ID 5157
quote:Oh, I'll put my spade back in the shed then.
Originally posted by Steve
Victor is being inaccurate at best (he also omits to say who "they" are). Nobody is proposing anything, it's just an idea floated by an ex-Mayor.
Reply ID 5158
Hertfords congestion problems could be solved by building a giant new tunnel beneath the town. The radicle idea is proposed as an alternative to building a hugely destructive A414 southern bypass through the green belt. The Mercury's words not mine. Did you delete Mr Fandango's comment by any chance Steve, you seem awfully upset?
Reply ID 5162
The Mercury also mentioned that similar plans for a tunnel were discussed by Herts County Council a decade ago, but dismissed it on 'financial and logistical grounds'. I'd love to see a tunnel as the solution to our traffic problems, but realistically the cost implications would be so enormous that I can't see the Council or the Government getting past theoretical discussions. If it was going to be done properly, it would have to be a very long tunnel as well.
Reply ID 5163
Surely it's never going to happen on cost grounds, just for starters. The mercury also mention geological reasons that might scupper it. There's someone calling a public meeting so we could all go along to that to get some facts.
Reply ID 5164
TVAs tunnels could become quite useful!!! (now I am being flippant)
Reply ID 5165
depends what you call 'properly' - they are only talking about ripping out Gascoigne Way so it wouldn't be enormous
Reply ID 5166
I think it's a great idea - this country should make much more use of tunnels like they do in Europe (just imagine if the M3 had been routed *under* all those beautiful downs rather than straight through them...) Regarding logistics and cost: big-balls projects and ideas like this are the only way we will successfully tackle the unprecedented traffic and congestion problems that we face today, while maintaining a decent living environment.
Reply ID 5168
Well said Joby. I spent 3 yrs living in Germany and they are very aware of their living environment when it comes to roads. I too could never understand why we can't do projects like this when our continental cousins can and do.
Reply ID 5171
Phaps if we had not spent so much money in the past changing the road systems in Hertford, adding traffic lights and pelican crossings, we may have more available funds. I agree with Mr Fandango, I used to do a lot of work in Madrid and they have the same sort of tunnels under residential areas.
Reply ID 5172
quote:It depends on who they are! The Mercury refers to two options: London Rd roundabout to Hertingfordbury Rd roundabout, and London Rd to the end of West Street. There would be many other options as well. I've just noticed that it's suggested the tunnel could be funded by building over the Gasgoyne Way section of the existing road. Not sure how this would work considering the road network is needed for local traffic to move around Hertford, as well as for those driving through the town as part of the A414.
Originally posted by smileyoriley
depends what you call 'properly' - they are only talking about ripping out Gascoigne Way so it wouldn't be enormous
Reply ID 5176
The Mercury’s front page Tunnel article is less about solving Hertford’s crippling traffic problems and more about the journalistic depths that our local weekly is prepared to plumb in order to fill its pages, hang on to its readership and keep the advertising revenue coming in. There is no story here. Two ladies who happily admit they haven’t a clue what they’re actually proposing, have said they might hold a public meeting one day (no date or venue is fixed) to discuss something they’ve thought up. That’s if they did think this up and contact the Mercury. Or did the journalists cook it up and look around for someone to run with it? I honestly don’t know but I believe this is a feeble piece of journalism cynically exploiting the very real concern many of us have about the traffic problems in our town. While it’s good to discuss the idea of the tunnel in this forum (which as usual will be plundered by the Mercury, keen to promote the ‘hot debate’ their article has provoked) and some really valid and interesting points have been made by forum contributors, there is no proposal or plan to go on and I would have to know a great deal more about the agenda for the good ladies’ public meeting (paid for by whom, I wonder?) and exactly what they are going to do with the consensus that emerges from it, before I wasted any more energy debating this ‘vision’.
Reply ID 5177
I have to agree with Rachel on this. It has as much 'legs' as my own proposal to build a ring road around Hertford making the town centre only accessible by park and ride facilities from deep, bunker-like underground car parks at Wadesmill, Van Hages, Rush Green and Cole Green. I'm only surprised that my old mate Raymond 'Tunnel' Brown isn't the author.
Reply ID 5178
I guess I should have read the article properly and not believed everything that goes in the newspapers first!!!! Bah! Still think its a good idea though, irrespective of costs. And it would give the kids on skateboards somewhere to play at night!!
Reply ID 5181
Rachel I presume you will be contacting the Mercury in protest then [?]
Reply ID 5183
No, Smiley, I won't be contacting the Mercury. The hacks all read these forums anyway. Sloop, you've just given them the front page story for the next quiet news week!
Reply ID 5184
it's not that I don't agree but I am one of those that say 'if you don't complain nothing can be done'
Reply ID 5185
Rachel I must agree..The best proposal I've ever seen in the Mercury was for the mono rail dated 1.04.04
Reply ID 5186
What's there to complain about? That we have a low opinion of The Mercury's standards? Why should that bother them? It's not as if they have any competition. People often have the bizarre idea that a newspaper's role is to report the news. This of course is rubbish. A newspaper's role is to sell newspapers. This is done by featuring "news based stories" that contain in various proportions: fact, conjecture, speculation, suggestion and hyperbole. Above all - "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". I'm sometimes amazed that people beleive what they read in the newspapers, seemingly unaware of how they are being manipulated and strung along.
Reply ID 5187
It does seem that the Mercury is simply trying to stir it up these days. Instead of printing news, they are printing hearsay. A tunnel will NEVER happen. It would cost more than 6 times the cost of a bypass.
Reply ID 5202
I don't understand why this discussion is moving towards a critiscm of the Mercury and away from the point. I believe that the whole thing has been started by developers who just want to build on green land, irrespective of the views of local poeple. Thoase that use the ring road daily have not,I believe, seen any great increase in their travel times - where is the comparison data. The majority will just get on with it and the minority will voice their opinions but not change their jobs because they know they can't better travel to work elsewhere.
Reply ID 5283
Its bad enough sittimg in traffic jams every day on top of Gascoyne way, Just imagine if this tunnel was built, hertford could boast the biggest underground car park in Europe!!!. Seriously, traffic is only going to get worse, and anyone in the area who needs to get to Hatfield and beyound have to go through Hertford, every solution has a downside, if they build a bypass, thousands of new houses will spring up, rendering a new road useless, tunnels well you;ve heard my comments on that. Interesting how the traffic is far calmer when the schools are on holiday.
Reply ID 5285
In a tunnel the traffic would have no need to stop for 6 round abouts (Hertingfordbury to the Lancaster garage)
Reply ID 5286
quote:Plus the 3 toucan crossings.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
In a tunnel the traffic would have no need to stop for 6 round abouts (Hertingfordbury to the Lancaster garage)
Reply ID 5287
Fair play to the women though for having the courage to stand up and propose, rather than simply oppose. It might not be practical, but we might as well see what the experts say first.
Reply ID 5288
quote:Is that a threecan?
Originally posted by Ewoowarquote:Plus the 3 toucan crossings.
Originally posted by Victor Meldrew
In a tunnel the traffic would have no need to stop for 6 round abouts (Hertingfordbury to the Lancaster garage)
Reply ID 5289
You know those Poly tunnels that are springing up in the green bits of the UK to grow before the season fruit and veg.. Why not poly tunnel a bypass.. and get revenue back by growing tomatoes and selling them to drivers from Essex! We built a stupid tunnel under the Channel, which, if my memory serves me well, had rock problems.. Lets consult the poly tunnel people and replace them when they rip or we cannot grow any more tomatoes!!![:D]
Reply ID 5291
why is the Channel tunnel stupid?
Reply ID 5305
This is a stream about our tunnel, not the one between us and France. I won't comment whats wrong with it and what's right with it. But what I will say is that in the continent generally they manage to build roads and save their environment and I do wonder why we cannot do the same? lets not debate the merits of linking with France, but of sorting out our "linking" between Harlow and Welwyn Garden City Thank you...
Reply ID 5310
well that told me off good & proper.....was just a question![;)][:(]
Reply ID 5315
From the inside pages of the Mercury it appears that this idea has caught the public imagination. Well, as Mandy Rice Krispie once said 'it would, wouldn't it'. What i want to know is, where is the traffic that normally travels on the A414 to go whilst the tunnel is being built. Perhaps we could put in a bypass whilst we wait.
Reply ID 5317
They did the same thing in Stoke and on the A1, and basically there was a few year "nightmare" (relatively speaking) while traffic was diverted along other routes. One way would be to have two, two-lane tunnels. Dig one whilst using the other side as a single carriageway road then swap over once the first is finished.
Reply ID 5334
Its a tricky one, no solution is going to be without hassles. But the real problem that was highlighted by us all over 10 years ago is still with us. We have to find some solution to this all. There must be a way in which we build a road, look and care for the environment and people and allow the town to thrive and people to go about their daily lives... I welcome public debate on this. Mind you, the way John Prescott has plans for the South East, we'll all be concrete anyway soon and not much chance of saving wildlife then!!!
Reply ID 5350
No one has managed to convince me of the huge environmnental damage caused by churning up a few farmers fields, which were already full of pesticide anyway. Are some local residents hiding behind the "environment" issue when the real motive is to avoid it being built close to their homes? The planning regs these days can actually improve the environmental impact, and the extra car pollution is certainly no worse that the volume being released by the traffic jams in town.
Reply ID 5358
quote:But have you seen the actual countryside that would likely be lost to such a road? And once it's gone, it's gone for good.[:(]
Originally posted by locallass
No one has managed to convince me of the huge environmnental damage caused by churning up a few farmers fields, which were already full of pesticide anyway. Are some local residents hiding behind the "environment" issue when the real motive is to avoid it being built close to their homes?
Reply ID 5367
quote:Do you mean the 5 farms? (the processed pestocide fields)?? Yes, I have seen them. I grew up here. Have you seen the heat and pollution haze in the town most nights? Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see natural beauty wiped out, but we are simply talking about the loss of fields, to create and piece of road that will improve lifestyle, the enviornment, the transport system, and most of all, the average local. Who should my local vote help? The moving of a baby worm in a field or killing a human babies lungs? I'm happy to hear responses, but please pool together to save engegy. I'd hate to think that my post lead to global warming. [;)]
Originally posted by Katequote:But have you seen the actual countryside that would likely be lost to such a road? And once it's gone, it's gone for good.[:(]
Originally posted by locallass
No one has managed to convince me of the huge environmnental damage caused by churning up a few farmers fields, which were already full of pesticide anyway. Are some local residents hiding behind the "environment" issue when the real motive is to avoid it being built close to their homes?
Reply ID 5380
more roads mean more polution!! not less thats been proven time after time, as for it being better for children well i would prefer them haveing some where to go that isnt concrete!! the reason that this has come up as a topic in the papers at the moment, is because of the other thread on this web site, which is to do with the amount of housing to be built here in the next few years. after all whos going to buy a house in hertford if it takes you at least half an hour to leave the town, not much of a commuter town! the better the links to london the more people that will move here, and the higher prices they will pay for property! (money talks) instead of making less pollution in the town you will still get the same amount of peple trying to travel through the town, plus a few thousand more on the new by-pass! as for locallass do you have children? you say you now live in a village and not hertford its self, i take it the village is surrounded by fields and that you would be quite happy to see those fields turned into concreat? i think not. as for your comment on worms if you think thats all that lives in a farmers fields then you must not have the upbringing or education that i did! coming from one of the largest towns in europe i can say that concreate and more roads just means more pollution which results in higher cases of asthma and brochitis and other related illnesses. i suggest you check facts out befor your so flipent with the next few generations well being! mrs del and yes i do have asthma![xx(]
Reply ID 5386
I agree. I don't want to live in a concreate jungle. The joy of Hertford is that it's rural to an extent but has life. There have to be the necessary roads and I think we have enough of the things anyway. It's just one of those things we have to live with. I could go and live in the country, then have to use road's to get to a shop that didn't rip me off in a village with one corner shop with the Monopoly on the market. Then get my 4 x 4 to get the kid's to School and cause more death and destruction on the roads. How many more Emergency services would have to be funded to clear the debris from extra roads. If more accessible, higher speed, more accidents!!!!! I'd rather slow traffic, at least I can admire the beautiful countryside whilst sitting in traffic.
Reply ID 5387
quote:And what do you admire whilst stuck on Gasgoyne way ?
Originally posted by Tigger
I'd rather slow traffic, at least I can admire the beautiful countryside whilst sitting in traffic.
Reply ID 5390
I normally take the alternate route through town, at least I can look in shops windows and people passing by[:D] Tigger
Reply ID 5410
quote:Del, please don't put words in my mouth. And my "facts" are based on 6 years of being a EU environmental officer. What are yours? More roads do NOT mean more pollution. Congregation of vehicles, rather than volume lead to bad air condition. Its a fact. Just look at the smog over LA. Its caused by the queues. When the roads move, the fumes are dispursed. Hertford is no different. Although people assume that new roads equal problems, taking the traffic out of the town and spreading it out in the country is much better for the people. Pure fact. (do you want me to dig out the surveys?). However, I do agree with you about the nature of new roads and the danger of new housing. By the way, I live in Hertford. I said villages were the way to go, not that I lived there. Please read what I say before passing judgement or comment. It makes intelligent debate so much easier.
Originally posted by del
more roads mean more polution!! not less thats been proven time after time, as for it being better for children well i would prefer them haveing some where to go that isnt concrete!! the reason that this has come up as a topic in the papers at the moment, is because of the other thread on this web site, which is to do with the amount of housing to be built here in the next few years. after all whos going to buy a house in hertford if it takes you at least half an hour to leave the town, not much of a commuter town! the better the links to london the more people that will move here, and the higher prices they will pay for property! (money talks) instead of making less pollution in the town you will still get the same amount of peple trying to travel through the town, plus a few thousand more on the new by-pass! as for locallass do you have children? you say you now live in a village and not hertford its self, i take it the village is surrounded by fields and that you would be quite happy to see those fields turned into concreat? i think not. as for your comment on worms if you think thats all that lives in a farmers fields then you must not have the upbringing or education that i did! coming from one of the largest towns in europe i can say that concreate and more roads just means more pollution which results in higher cases of asthma and brochitis and other related illnesses. i suggest you check facts out befor your so flipent with the next few generations well being! mrs del and yes i do have asthma![xx(]
Reply ID 5412
Del did not write that..Dawn did.But in you comment on parking attendence you did say you live out of town !Last of personal attacks please[;)]
Reply ID 5513
sorry i did put mrs del. locallass i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. as i still think new road, new houses more pollution less greenery to combat it!
Reply ID 5556
I see there is going to be a public meeting on the subject of a tunnel. What for? And I see there has been plenty of support........they've had "20 or 30 emails"............well that settles it then, no need for debate...........just dig the thing and have done with it. 20 or 30? Come on! You'd get more interest if you advertised your old socks for sale on Ebay.
Reply ID 5558
Could these 20-30 be the one's that want to dig the thing on double bubble at weekends? Maybe it's just a ploy to keep us all in Hertford because we would need an age to get either in or out of the town. As much as I love it I need to 'escape' sometimes.[:o)]
Reply ID 5561
quote:I quite agree with your facts locallass. Because I work shifts in London - I often have to drive in (becuase the Train service is inadequate for me) and I have noticed that when I drive down the A1(M) my fuel economy is very good (40-50MPG) but once I get into traffic in London my fuel economy drops to 20-30MPG which obviously means that my car is being less efficient and therefore producing more pollution. As for comments about covering the earth with concrete busy roads tend to have green areas on either side that become a haven for wildlife etc. and building a road does not cover all of the surrounding fields with concrete. The bigger problem would be people trying to build more houses using a bypass as some kind of "natural boundary"
Originally posted by locallass
More roads do NOT mean more pollution. Congregation of vehicles, rather than volume lead to bad air condition. Its a fact. Just look at the smog over LA. Its caused by the queues. When the roads move, the fumes are dispursed. Hertford is no different. Although people assume that new roads equal problems, taking the traffic out of the town and spreading it out in the country is much better for the people. Pure fact. (do you want me to dig out the surveys?). However, I do agree with you about the nature of new roads and the danger of new housing. By the way, I live in Hertford. I said villages were the way to go, not that I lived there. Please read what I say before passing judgement or comment. It makes intelligent debate so much easier.
Reply ID 5606
I have just received my official invitation to the public meeting which is due to take place on Thursday April 14 at 7.30 in the Mill Bridge Rooms in The Wash. I will be bringing my own spade.[:D]
Reply ID 5621
Sloop, can you tell us who the letter is from i.e. what's the letter heading, please? And what's the reason given for the meeting? Is it to discuss traffic solutions generally, or is it just about the Gascoyne Way tunnel nonsense? Printing and distributing official invitations and hiring a venue doesn't come cheap - I'd be very interested to find out who is paying for this and whether the two ladies who are fronting it are dipping into their own pockets or being funded from elsewhere. Can you give us any more info about who's behind this, please? If you don't feel that's appropriate, no worries, I guess I could always wander along to the meeting to ask those questions.
Reply ID 5622
Rachel, the letter was addressed to me in one of my official capacities on private notepaper from Jane Page. Having re-read this a few times the meeting is ostensibly about building a tunnel (or should that be digging?!)as an alternative to a southern bypass. However, after saying that Gascoyne Way was a big mistake she goes on to say: 'Reports from the meeting could inform and influence local and national government decisions about the future provision of the East-West trunk road, in a way that benefits Hertford'. Brenda Bruce and herself appear to be widening the discussion a little bit further than just the idea of a tunnel. (Sorry Raymond.)[;)] I haven't seen the Mercury yet so don't know if they have taken out any further advertising but the letter is personally signed, email addresses are personal so believe the whole thing is being underwritten by the ladies themselves. I know they have been and still are, quite active politically but there is no mention whatsoever about any involvement from any political party. As such I have to congratulate 'the Tunnel Two' for really putting their money where their mouth is because organising this sort of meeting is not cheap for the ordinary man (or woman) in the street.
Reply ID 5629
Looks like they've been overtaken by Boris Brainskeem!!!!
Reply ID 5631
Thank you, Sloop. It is encouraging to note that the meeting might not be just about the tunnel idea. I hope the ladies manage to use the outcome of the meeting to promote awareness of the need to alleviate Hertford's traffic problems. As Steve points out, the Mercury have run an April Fool story on the subject of Gascoyne Way. It might have been funnier if they hadn't had to make it so obvious - what a low opinion they must have of the intelligence of their readers. Mike's post on this forum (New Airport for Hertford) was far better.
Reply ID 5640
Please plesae please, lets get real.... A tunnel? This must be the biggest April fools joke for years... There is one easy solution , well several really to the problem of congestion in your / ours / my town :- 1 - Think about your car use, do you really need to take it ? could you walk, cycle, heavens above maybe even try using public transport. 2 - Mr Livingston has made a valiant start in London..think about it ! 3 - Its time to give up the love affair with the motor car, its environmental impact will be with us for generations. Discuss !
Reply ID 5641
1. I live on Sele Farm and prefer to walk into the town. It gets me out in the fresh air, I get some much needed exercise and I don't have to worry about parking. It's about a 20 minute walk which, let's face it, isn't THAT long. 2. I work in Wood Green & travel all around Haringey. The buses are superb. I can get to wherever I want with a maximum 5 minute walk when I get off. I can't remember waiting more than 10 mins for a bus. 3. Getting in the car has become too easy. One of the children at my son's school gets driven to and from school. He lives about 1/2 mile from the school. I used to drive just about everywhere when really a lot of journeys are made because it's too easy to get in the car.
Reply ID 5642
Good for you JS, dont get me on the school run topic though !! jeez... And to that end why does it have to be a huge 4x4? oh of course to get across the wild terrain of Hertford town.
Reply ID 5646
At the risk of opening up a far wider debate, it's all Thatcher's fault. The woman who legitimised greed and selfishness and who despised public transport.
Reply ID 5650
quote:So we give it to a government who promise, not a quick change, but a complete overhaul, in 10 years. 8 years in, every major statistic says they have gone backwards. Confident they will achieve the 50% increases in service they pledged? Or are they even bigger liars!? But in the meantime, the've improved crime. Right?
Originally posted by Steve
At the risk of opening up a far wider debate, it's all Thatcher's fault. The woman who legitimised greed and selfishness and who despised public transport.
Reply ID 5721
Point me at these statistics Dude... as well we know statistiics can be manipulated to show whatever you want !!! Anyway this should not be a party political issue. The environment, quality of life etc are above the petty squabblings of politicians ! or so it would seem.